Mental blunders tarnishing Escobar's value
So I finished my weekend away from the beat by spending Sunday afternoon watching the Gwinnett Braves, or at least what's left of the once-strong club that no longer has the luxury of sending Tommy Hanson and Kris Medlen to the mound every five days.
After getting the opportunity to shoot the breeze with manager Dave Brundage and catch up with Jordan Schafer, I watched Brian Barton show why he and his tremendous speed will likely continue to be on display in Minor League stadiums throughout the country.
When Barton dropped a routine fly ball in shallow right field, I said "well that's about the worst blooper you're going to see." Almost immediately two other voices said that if I stuck around to watch Gwinnett for a few more days, Barton would likely provide some sort of encore.
OK, so while gaining a laugh at Barton's expense, I didn't have the opportunity to get a live look at Yunel Escobar's latest mental blunder. But I certainly gained quick notice after Bobby Cox opted to bench the maddening shortstop, whose tremendous physical skills are tarnished by his flashy behavior and stubbornness.
Cox's patience level is so great that it at times can also prove to be maddening. But he had every right to reach his boiling point on Sunday, after Escobar inexplicably opted not to tag Brian Roberts during a rundown and instead made a late throw to the plate in attempt to retire Robert Andino.
Escobar's latest mental gaffe might not have cost the Braves Sunday's series finale. Nor is there any guarantee that things might have been different had he made the double play relay that potentially could have erased all of the damage the Orioles produced during their three-run first inning against Derek Lowe.
But when start compiling mental mistakes at the same rate that Bernie Maddoff compiles enemies, you've got a problem that needs to be addressed.
Twice over the course of the past five games an opposing runner has crossed the plate because Escobar has essentially been in la-la land. Then of course there was June 5 game against Milwaukee, when within a span of about three minutes, he made two mistakes that allowed the Brewers to produce a two-run fifth inning against Jair Jurrjens.
Whenever Escobar adds to his list of blunders, it might be easy for the common fan to exclaim the word, IDIOT. But from what I can tell, this 25-year-old shortstop is anything but stupid. In fact, there have been numerous times that his aggressive baserunning and tactical defensive play have provided indication that he possesses a tremendous baseball IQ.
When his aggressive approach allows him to take an extra base or create a spectacular defensive gem with a throw a normal shortstop would have never attempted, we characterize him as being gutsy. But when you go to the dazzling well too often like Escobar, you find yourself facing the ridicule of public scorn.
With his repeated attempts to be more flashy than precise, Escobar has done nothing but routinely hurt himself and his teammates. In the football world, he would be that coach who would regularly bypass the opportunity to punt to gain the opportunity to awe the crowd by converting fourth-and-20 from inside his own territory.
As often as Escobar wows us with his physical abilities, he continues to frustrate with these mental mistakes and his determination to seemingly want to infuriate every umpire and opposing player. Twice during last week's series against the Pirates, he responded to a strike call by flipping his bat in the air and letting it hit the ground.
Umpires are professionals, but at the same time they are like many of us in the fact that we are often swayed by emotion. This is not to say that every umpire is out to get Escobar, which he seemingly believes. But when the opportunity arises for him to gain the benefit of the doubt with a call, it's hard to believe he's going to get it on a regular basis.
Still even as maddening as Escobar has proven to be, the Braves really don't have much choice but to stick with him and hope the future attention he draws rests solely on the tremendous capabilities he provides with his bat and glove.
If looking for the most-talented shortstop the Braves have had dating back to 1991, the only other one you could even attempt to compare to Escobar would be Rafael Furcal. While Furcal had the speed, Escobar every bit as much with the bat in his hand. And with his range and arm, he's every bit as dangerous as the man known as Fookie.
Understanding that Escobar had a tough transition after defecting from Cuba in 2004, the Braves have remained patient with him. But as long as he continues to think everybody is out to get him, he's going to continue to prove stubborn while ignoring the guidance provided by bench coach Chino Cadahia (a fellow former Cuban) and any other Latin player that has attempted to assist him.
Unless they received a shortstop in return, the Braves aren't in a position where they can simply trade Escobar. In case you forgot, the shortstop (Elvis Andrus) who might have served as his replacement, left the building two summers ago.
There's also no doubt that the Braves wouldn't be able to gain an equally-talented shortstop in return. But what is the benefit of talent when it's routinely ruined by decisions that further display one's stubborn disregard for disciplined decisions?
Frenchy rumors: While the Marlins may not have been willing to trade Cody Ross for Jeff Francoeur, I wouldn't completely discount the possibility of Francoeur ending up in Miami, where he'd be reunited with manager Fredi Gonzalez, who is the man responsible for giving him the nickname "Frenchy".
If the Braves were going to deal Francoeur to the Marlins, my guess is that it would be in exchange for Jeremy Hermida, another former Atlanta high school product who has struggled to live up to the expectations he produced during his days as a top prospect.
But Hermida has at least provided some recent signs of encouragement with a .276 batting average and .794 OPS (on-base percentage plus slugging percentage). In his past 28 games dating back to May 15, he has hit .322 with five homers and an .863 OPS.
Some of you have wondered why Francoeur seems to always be the one getting bashed while Kelly Johnson gets a free pass. Other than saying it's a product of him being the higher-profile player, there isn't a valid line of reasoning.
Dating back to the beginning of the 2007 season, Johnson and Francoeur have played more games than any other Braves players.
During this span, Johnson has hit .274 with 33 homers and a .795 OPS. Francoeur has hit .264 with 34 homers and a .705 OPS.
The primary difference in their production began last year. Since the beginning of the 2008 season, Johnson has hit .274 with 17 homers and a .769 OPS. Francoeur's stats during this span include a .242 batting average, 15 homers and a .646 OPS.
Because Johnson is a second baseman and Francoeur is a right fielder, some of you have also said you can't compare apples to oranges. But let's not forget that the Braves essentially made Johnson a second baseman to simply find a spot to have his bat in the lineup on a regular basis.
Of course with his current .238 batting average and .699 OPS (third-worst among qualified NL second basemen), Johnson should just feel fortunate that he's maintained a spot in the Braves lineup.
After getting the opportunity to shoot the breeze with manager Dave Brundage and catch up with Jordan Schafer, I watched Brian Barton show why he and his tremendous speed will likely continue to be on display in Minor League stadiums throughout the country.
When Barton dropped a routine fly ball in shallow right field, I said "well that's about the worst blooper you're going to see." Almost immediately two other voices said that if I stuck around to watch Gwinnett for a few more days, Barton would likely provide some sort of encore.
OK, so while gaining a laugh at Barton's expense, I didn't have the opportunity to get a live look at Yunel Escobar's latest mental blunder. But I certainly gained quick notice after Bobby Cox opted to bench the maddening shortstop, whose tremendous physical skills are tarnished by his flashy behavior and stubbornness.
Cox's patience level is so great that it at times can also prove to be maddening. But he had every right to reach his boiling point on Sunday, after Escobar inexplicably opted not to tag Brian Roberts during a rundown and instead made a late throw to the plate in attempt to retire Robert Andino.
Escobar's latest mental gaffe might not have cost the Braves Sunday's series finale. Nor is there any guarantee that things might have been different had he made the double play relay that potentially could have erased all of the damage the Orioles produced during their three-run first inning against Derek Lowe.
But when start compiling mental mistakes at the same rate that Bernie Maddoff compiles enemies, you've got a problem that needs to be addressed.
Twice over the course of the past five games an opposing runner has crossed the plate because Escobar has essentially been in la-la land. Then of course there was June 5 game against Milwaukee, when within a span of about three minutes, he made two mistakes that allowed the Brewers to produce a two-run fifth inning against Jair Jurrjens.
Whenever Escobar adds to his list of blunders, it might be easy for the common fan to exclaim the word, IDIOT. But from what I can tell, this 25-year-old shortstop is anything but stupid. In fact, there have been numerous times that his aggressive baserunning and tactical defensive play have provided indication that he possesses a tremendous baseball IQ.
When his aggressive approach allows him to take an extra base or create a spectacular defensive gem with a throw a normal shortstop would have never attempted, we characterize him as being gutsy. But when you go to the dazzling well too often like Escobar, you find yourself facing the ridicule of public scorn.
With his repeated attempts to be more flashy than precise, Escobar has done nothing but routinely hurt himself and his teammates. In the football world, he would be that coach who would regularly bypass the opportunity to punt to gain the opportunity to awe the crowd by converting fourth-and-20 from inside his own territory.
As often as Escobar wows us with his physical abilities, he continues to frustrate with these mental mistakes and his determination to seemingly want to infuriate every umpire and opposing player. Twice during last week's series against the Pirates, he responded to a strike call by flipping his bat in the air and letting it hit the ground.
Umpires are professionals, but at the same time they are like many of us in the fact that we are often swayed by emotion. This is not to say that every umpire is out to get Escobar, which he seemingly believes. But when the opportunity arises for him to gain the benefit of the doubt with a call, it's hard to believe he's going to get it on a regular basis.
Still even as maddening as Escobar has proven to be, the Braves really don't have much choice but to stick with him and hope the future attention he draws rests solely on the tremendous capabilities he provides with his bat and glove.
If looking for the most-talented shortstop the Braves have had dating back to 1991, the only other one you could even attempt to compare to Escobar would be Rafael Furcal. While Furcal had the speed, Escobar every bit as much with the bat in his hand. And with his range and arm, he's every bit as dangerous as the man known as Fookie.
Understanding that Escobar had a tough transition after defecting from Cuba in 2004, the Braves have remained patient with him. But as long as he continues to think everybody is out to get him, he's going to continue to prove stubborn while ignoring the guidance provided by bench coach Chino Cadahia (a fellow former Cuban) and any other Latin player that has attempted to assist him.
Unless they received a shortstop in return, the Braves aren't in a position where they can simply trade Escobar. In case you forgot, the shortstop (Elvis Andrus) who might have served as his replacement, left the building two summers ago.
There's also no doubt that the Braves wouldn't be able to gain an equally-talented shortstop in return. But what is the benefit of talent when it's routinely ruined by decisions that further display one's stubborn disregard for disciplined decisions?
Frenchy rumors: While the Marlins may not have been willing to trade Cody Ross for Jeff Francoeur, I wouldn't completely discount the possibility of Francoeur ending up in Miami, where he'd be reunited with manager Fredi Gonzalez, who is the man responsible for giving him the nickname "Frenchy".
If the Braves were going to deal Francoeur to the Marlins, my guess is that it would be in exchange for Jeremy Hermida, another former Atlanta high school product who has struggled to live up to the expectations he produced during his days as a top prospect.
But Hermida has at least provided some recent signs of encouragement with a .276 batting average and .794 OPS (on-base percentage plus slugging percentage). In his past 28 games dating back to May 15, he has hit .322 with five homers and an .863 OPS.
Some of you have wondered why Francoeur seems to always be the one getting bashed while Kelly Johnson gets a free pass. Other than saying it's a product of him being the higher-profile player, there isn't a valid line of reasoning.
Dating back to the beginning of the 2007 season, Johnson and Francoeur have played more games than any other Braves players.
During this span, Johnson has hit .274 with 33 homers and a .795 OPS. Francoeur has hit .264 with 34 homers and a .705 OPS.
The primary difference in their production began last year. Since the beginning of the 2008 season, Johnson has hit .274 with 17 homers and a .769 OPS. Francoeur's stats during this span include a .242 batting average, 15 homers and a .646 OPS.
Because Johnson is a second baseman and Francoeur is a right fielder, some of you have also said you can't compare apples to oranges. But let's not forget that the Braves essentially made Johnson a second baseman to simply find a spot to have his bat in the lineup on a regular basis.
Of course with his current .238 batting average and .699 OPS (third-worst among qualified NL second basemen), Johnson should just feel fortunate that he's maintained a spot in the Braves lineup.
Hey Mark, you've been really good about getting to requests that I've made in posts after I make them, so maybe you could do a short response on Infante and how he is doing in rehab? I keep wondering if our trade is going to be Escobar or Johnson as soon as Infante gets back, IF he can prove he can get a hit or two. Any thoughts of updates on if he is doing well ?
Report any abuse or spam
Francoeur gets bashed more because he has been terrible for much longer than Kelly has. Kelly put up decent numbers last season, especially for a 2nd baseman... Francouer's numbers only look good if he's a pitcher. Not to mention that Francoeur felt he was above being sent down to the minors last season. "This puts a damper on my relationship with the braves" or something like that comes to mind. And then there's the arbitration this off season where he asked for way more than he's worth after putting up some of the worst numbers in the game.
Report any abuse or spam
There is no way that the Braves will get anything of value for Jeff Francouer. The Marlins wouldn't move Ross for Francouer, but they will move Hermida for him? Not very likely at all. Where did you come up with that one.
Report any abuse or spam
Similar players, Francoeur and Hermida. Hermida is a much better player and if he could ever find his power stroke he'd be an all-star. But very similar in that they haven't developed like their organizations hoped they would. They're under team control for the same amount of time. They were both born in January of 1984. They were both drafted in the first round of the 2002 draft (Hermida 11, Francoeur 23). Interesting nugget. Every year from 2006 to 2008 Jeff Francoeur's strikeout to walk ratio dropped. He was at 5.74 in 2006, 3.07 in 2007, and 2.85 in 2008, but he's gone backwards this year, up to 3.40. Hermida's, on the other hand, has gotten worse every year from 2006 to 2008. It was 2.13 in 2006, 2.23 in 2007, and 2.88 in 2008. But he has also reversed the trend this year, bringing his strikeout to walk ratio down to 1.64. The strikeouts for Hermida are as low as they've ever been, the walks are as high as they've ever been, but only 25% of his hits are for extra bases, a career low. Maybe getting him into a more neutral park will help those XBH numbers.
Report any abuse or spam
Isn't Jeff Francouer and Jeremy Hermdia the same player. One is right handed the other left. That doesn't solve the problem it just buys time from the fans ire. This doesn't make the Braves better. I want them to improve not just mask the problem.
Also if the Marlins won't trade Ross why would the trade Hermida. Isn't Hermedia considered the better player.
Report any abuse or spam
Hermdia might be an upgrade offensively but he is an downgrade defensively not to mention he would lop side the lineup more. That swap as lamar1banks2 posted would mask the problem for awhile not solve it.
Report any abuse or spam
Thanks wisbrave. Now if we as fans can see this hopefully Wren can also and stay away from this type of trade.
Report any abuse or spam
Trade Kotchman for Peralta, Medlen, Francouer and Bennett for Nelson Cruz, Escobar for Scott
New line-up
CF Nate McClouth
2B Martin Prado
3B Chipper Jones
RF Nelson Cruz
C Brian McCann
LF Luke Scott
1B Barbaro Carnizares
SS Ben Zobrist
Report any abuse or spam
neverwhere.. why would we trade Escobar? He's only 25 and he's the one of the only good hitters on the team. I like the flashy play but the mental mistakes aren't so good. But honestly I don't see how this is such a big deal. Different people have different personalities and his upside greatly outweighs the mistakes. At least he's not Jose Reyes.
Report any abuse or spam
glaciercav: There is no way the Rays are going to trade Zobrist and no way the Rangers are going to trade Cruz, especially for those players. And I can't see why on Earth the Marlins would want to trade Hermida for Francouer (not that the Braves need yet another LH hitter). Finally, the Indians aren't exactly looking for a 1B with about three or four players currently taking turns there (including Martinez, Garko, and De Rosa). These proposals are absurd.
Report any abuse or spam
glacercav thats alot of wheeling and dealing to get somewhat proven players. And I don't think you meant Zobrist in that equation, I think you meant Peralta.
Also and easier solution is for management to spend money for a free-agent bat. A true clean up hitter would extend the line up and give us a legit 1-5. Its not a total solution but you can't win without talent and players like Garrett Anderson just mask the problem.
Report any abuse or spam
Lamar,
This is almost too easy, but no, they're not the same player. Hermida has plate discipline. Har har har. Actually your point about LH batter is invalid since the team has hit lefties better than righties this season. 20 points of Batting Average higher, 12 points of OBP higher, and 18 points of SLG% higher against LHP.
Wisbrave,
Jeff Francoeur rated as the 30th best RF defensively last year and cost the team 7 runs compared to average according to +/-. UZR had him valued at -4.9 last year. Hermida, on the other hand, saved a run in right field and was 13th on the list according to +/-. One probably isn't better than the other, but there's no evidence Francoeur is better defensively. Francoeur probably has the better arm but Hermida probably covers a ton more ground. Francoeur hasn't been able to get to balls most RF can get to ever since his weight lifting experiment pre-2008. That really was the un-doing of his career.
Report any abuse or spam
Peter
You laugh and scoff mockingly but really what is your point.
At the end of the day are you saying Hermida is a better player? You gave stats on Hermida and attributed it to being my point, which it wasn't. Hermida's numbers suggest limited if any improvement over Francouer. And if you are suggesting Hermdia is a vast improvement(which I can hardly see) then a prospect would have to be included and the number's just don't support that.
Report any abuse or spam
Then again I hardly want to argue over two medicore players.
Report any abuse or spam
Anybody think we may have gotten an overhyped player in Nate McLouth? His arm doesn't seem that strong and it looks as though he doesn't trust himself to throw to home.
Report any abuse or spam
No, I'm not mocking you. And I'm hardly disagreeing with you. I was making a not very funny joke about Francoeur's lack of plate discipline. I meant it's almost too easy to make fun of Francoeur, not you. You've completely misjudged the tone of my post.
The only points I made in that post are a) Francoeur sucks, b) we hit lefties better than righties so adding another LH hitter wouldn't be counter-intuitive, and c) Francoeur's defense isn't significantly better, if at all, than Hermida's, but that portion of it was addressed to wisbrave. And point b) should've been addressed to wisbrave, I got my posts jumbled up. For that I apologize.
But to answer your question, yes Hermida is the better player. Hermida has a career line of .268/.347/.434 and has never posted an OBP below .300 playing in a much more pitcher-friendly ballpark. Francoeur has a career line of .267/.309/.425 and has posted 2 full seasons of OBP below .300. Also, over the past 2 years, Francoeur has hit .241/.291/.355 and Hermida has hit .258/.339/.411. So yes, Hermida is head and shoulders above Francoeur. However, his power is still developing and his numbers don't represent anything close to an impact bat, especially at a corner OF position. So no, he's not the answer. Maybe part of it, but not THE answer.
Report any abuse or spam
I think McLouth's defense is entirely over-hyped. He's not that good defensively. But his bat is solid.
Report any abuse or spam
My aplogizes then Peter.
Report any abuse or spam
So if McLouth's over-hyped is the fact that we gave such a good package to the Pirates look foolish. I like McLouth but he should have be able to be obtained for a lesser price. It seems like the Braves are getting beat in the field and in the front-office.
Report any abuse or spam
PWHjort, you're right but I don't think it really matters because Hermida would not be enough to jump start our offense. Even a slight up grade might leave us just short of the playoffs. We need an established bat, but it's going to take some creativity.
Report any abuse or spam
Why do so many posters keep suggesting that Nelson Cruz is a viable option? Is there some "Nelson Cruz is available" link that I'm not aware of? The Rangers would be more likely to move Marlon Byrd, Andruw Jones, or Daniel Murphy before Cruz as best I can tell. If the Braves were truly interested in the guy, the time to do it was about 12 months ago not after he's finally proven successful at the major league level for a first place team.
I don't think the package we gave up for McLouth was all that bad. He's under control at a good salary for several years to come. He's a solid (though not frontline) offensive player, and my gut instinct is that the goal is to have him playing left with Schafer in center come next year. In left McLouth's arm and range would be above average, he's just not a true centerfielder. Given the team's assumed salary restrictions and that we've already dealt many of the expendable prospect chips to acquire McLouth, I think we as fans might have to be complacent that this team will have to overpeform to be successful this year. It's an improved roster over last year, but it now seems clear we're not all the way back to true playoff caliber, and anything that can be done mid-season is going to be a stretch. Sure, we can make a play for a guy like DeRosa or Holliday, but those guys will come at a cost that the fans will be second-guessing by May of next year when the player is no longer around and prospects are missing from the system. I feel everyone's frustration, but at some point you have to realize when you're stretching to maybe be competitive rather than looking at the longterm success of the team. A good example of this is the Houston Astros who never give up on a season, typically acquire a player or two in July to try to revive the season, and as a result have a weak farm system and overpriced older players. At some point you just have to hope for the best, expect the worst, and realize that the longterm health of the team is more important than a desperate run in a situation where the team is clearly more than just a piece away from a World Series run.
Report any abuse or spam
McLouth is over hyped as an CF but would fill into one of the corner spots decently when Schafer is ready to come back up. We also needed a leadoff hitter since Infante is on the DL and McLouth is a very smart base runner with some speed. I think the deal was fair for both sides. But if you ask a pirates fan they were raped.
Here is an article You guys might find interesting.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/200013-stoking-the-fires-3-if-i-were-the-atlanta-braves-gm
Report any abuse or spam
No worries, Lamar.
As far as McLouth goes, I think we got a steal. This guy is under team control at below market value for 4 more years. And we didn't give up any blue-chip prospects and were able to deal from positions of organizational depth. We really didn't give up too much for him.
Report any abuse or spam
Yunel Escobar (AKA, Sloth, from the Goonies), has more damn mental breakdowns than Jack Nicholson in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"
Report any abuse or spam
Can someone tell me why Jason Heyward was moved from Myrtle Beach to Danville?
Report any abuse or spam
Emarc, I'm not sure if he was moved (Heyward), but I do know that he has not played since 5/26/09. They are saying "side pain". It was first reported as a hip flexor.
Report any abuse or spam
Emarc,
To manage the Myrtle Beach roster while he recovers. He is healthy now but they're being cautious. I can hardly blame them.
Report any abuse or spam
Any news on Kotchman?
Report any abuse or spam
Kotchman is coming off the DL tonight and Canizares is heading back to Gwinnett. During his brief introduction to the Majors, Canizares had four hits, including one double, and four strikeouts in 17 at-bats.
Report any abuse or spam
Man, after reading Schultz's article I felt depressed. We really have a lot of holes in our lineup, and I've known that for quite some time, but his article was like a "cup check" and I wasn't prepared.
I think sometimes when our GM makes a move we get so excited that somehow we lose perspective---99% of the postings were in favor of the McLouth trade; but after several games having him in our lineup, with similar results, there are now a lot of people bashing McLouth, or at least saying that he doesn't measure up. I still like the move. I think he's a great role player, with an affordable price tag, which is huge for a small to mid-market team. We're not the Yankees, and we're just not going to have All-Stars at every position. What we're still missing, however, is a difference maker who isn't injured all the time or who doesn't sit out 20% of our games, i.e. Jones and McCann. Can we get someone like that right now in the trade market? I don't know. But if we can't and all the holes in our lineup don't fix themselves, then a playoff bid in 09' is completely out of the picture.
Report any abuse or spam
Line-up tonight:
1. Jordan Schafer CF
2. Nate McLouth LF
3. Chipper Jones 3B
4. Freddie Freeman 1B
5. Brian McCann C
6. Jason Heyward RF
7. Yunel Escobar SS
8. Brandon Hicks 2B
9. Cole Rohrbough LHP
Report any abuse or spam
I wish
Report any abuse or spam
I saw on MLBTR that the Rockies have signed their top draft pick from the 1st year player draft. How are negotiations coming along with Mike Minor and the other draft picks Atlanta intends to sign? Is Mike Minor asking for a big signing bonus 1.0 Mil or >? Was the reason they selected Minor over say Alex White, Shelby Miller, or another big name signability and low bonus requirements? or, even because one of the other players they were checking out were Scott Boras clients?
Mark,
out of Jeff Francoeur, Kelly Johnson, Javier Vazquez, Yunel Escobar, Mike Gonzalez (FA after season), Rafael Soriano (FA after season) & Garret Anderson whom do you most believe will be traded (or released [as the case may be for either GA or Frenchy])?
I know I may be met with harsh criticism here but in the instance of the Braves releasing/trading away/not re-signing veterans (Glavine, Smoltz,Texeira,Kotsay) whom command large salaries and their production waning as the years stack up, why did the Braves choose (beyond legacy, nostalgia, & commitment to fans affinities) to give Chipper Jones a large contract (at age 36) when he has become such a large health risk over the years? I know his B.A. has never been higher the last 2 years, but his games played have gone down almost every year since 2003. Are we simply that bad at the 3rd base position in the minors or unbelieving in the FA market to pay one man a hefty salary to play 110-120 games a year. This man is the face of the franchise (now), there is absolutely no way to refute that, but in breaking tradition such as they did by finally saying goodbye to the last of their dynamic pitchers from the record division winning run(s), isn't it time to also look ahead in the future and see that playing to win every year is costing them just that...a chance to win every year. When they developed the playoff winning teams of the 90's it was because of the farm system they nurtured and allowed to mature. With each hefty contract they bring over (hamstringing them in the offseason), blue chip prospects they trade away (ensuring vicarious future success), and re-signing veteran players whom are beyond their means...the braves slip lower into baseball lore and ensure a string of years to come much like their conterparts in the 70's and 80's.
Just look at all the prospects they've traded away that have (or will) definitely flourish: Elvis Andrus, Matt Harrison, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Max Ramirez, Charlie Morton, Gorkys Hernandez, Jeff Locke, Joey Devine, Tyler Flowers, Jon Gilmore, Brent Lillibridge, Neftali Feliz, Adam Wainwright, Kevin Millwood, Jermaine Dye, Mark DeRosa, Kyle Davies, etc.
With the way that Francouer has fallen out of favor with the fans and Escobar has become a defensive liability, whom wouldn't mind have Andrus and DeRosa as capable replacements?
Report any abuse or spam
wingatsm, unless I'm mistaken, the Rockies didn't sign their top pick, Matzek, yet; however, they did sign their other 1st round (32nd) pick.
Report any abuse or spam
Bobbycoxismyfather,
You are correct, they haven't signed Matzek. Those negotiations will likely drag out all summer long. His agent has his eye on Rick Porcello money (7+ million). He was my favorite draft prospect but the asking price scared the Braves away. I guess I understand.
Report any abuse or spam
Wingatsm,
If I'm not mistaken Chipper Jones contract extension came after the John Smoltz release and the negative public backlash that recieved, I doubt the Braves front-office wanted another P.R. nightmare. Combine that with the release of Glavine and Wren may have feared thet he was pushing Bobby Cox out the door.
As far a the free agents that were let go ie Smoltz,Glavine,Kotsay and Teixeira, I think most fans could have gotten over all but Tex. Tex's price tag was pretty well known around baseball circles for quite sometime. He reportedly even turned down a high priced extension from the Rangers the yr before prompting them to put him on the trade market. Wren and company dropped the ball by trading all that talent and then not re-signing him. That trade makes the J.D. Drew deal look like a win/win for the braves.
And as to some of the prospects that you named I'm not sure that Jermaine Dye, Kyle Davies, Mark DeRosa and Kevin Millwood are fair to include them with the others.
Dye was given up on to early but that was Wren, DeRosa never played any position well in is time in Atlanta and was used much like Prado is now. And DeRosa power came yrs after he left Atlanta. Kyle Davies was given up on b/c him and Horacio Ramirez were asked to produce way before they were ready and at a time when the previous ownership didn't want to spend money on the braves. They were cheap and tried to cut corners anyway they could (moves like signing Vinny Castilla and moving Chipper to the outfield and after Smoltz set records as a closer moved him back to a starter and signing Chris Reitsma and Dan Klob). As for Millwood he wanted to be paid and make market value and that was number 2 starter type money. At the time the Braves had great success re-tooling lesser players and still winning ie Russ Ortiz/Denny Neagle/Kent Mercker/Dennis Martinez.
As for the others on that list you are right thats all on Wren.
Report any abuse or spam
Sometimes I wonder if some of you guys ever pay attention to anything. The Braves got Texeira because they thought he would push them into the playoffs that year, but the pitching wasn't good enough. The Braves actually offered him a pretty great offer, probably better than the one from the Rangers, but he refused because he knew what he could get from a team like the Yankees. And at least we got Kotchman for him.
Listing Dye in that list of prospects "given away" is ludicrous since that happened almost 13 years ago. And everyone else in the list besides the ones in the Tex deal were pieces in good trades. Flowers / Lillibridge for Vasquez was brilliant. I think the McLouth trade was great. The Braves got JD Drew for Wainwright, correct? Well, didn't he take them to the playoffs that year? If they had won the Series you would be singing a different tune.
Oh and I probably would follow the Braves about a quarter as much as I do now if they didn't extend Chipper's contract. Chipper IS the Braves and deserves to stay there as long as he wants.
Report any abuse or spam
Now Mark will be impossible to live with having had his musical preferences and mug featured on the broadcast tonight.
Report any abuse or spam
Another thing that, sadly, still has to be mentioned time and time again is that Wren DID NOT trade for Texeira, Scheurholz did. You still see post after post of people blaming Wren for giving up that talent, but he didn't...
Report any abuse or spam
PWHjort, I agree on Matzek. All I know about him is what I've read...I've never seen any videos. But everyone seemed so high on Matzek. I watched the draft and when I saw he was available I really hoped the Braves would go after him. That said, many other teams passed on him for lesser talent, so perhaps he is "unsignable", at least for the Braves. But why Minor with the 7th pick? And why all the college arms all of the sudden? I'm kind of lost.
Report any abuse or spam
What is the big love affair with Salty all about anyway? He has a K to AB ratio about the same as Schafer, and he is no great shakes behind the plate. Harrison is a no. 4 or 5 starter at .500 on a first place team, and Feliz is a AAA starter that averages 4 1/2 innings a start. He may be good but it is still early to make that call.
How many guys do you want that just make it to the big Leagues? We don't win again until we find guys that will excel in the Majors. Elvis is the only one on the list close to that yet.
Report any abuse or spam
wow, The Braves haven't scored again in 6 innings. We brought in Gasoline Bennett to shut it down and he has given up the 2nd and third runs to Cinci. Moylan is warming up. Talk about depressing. This is a team stuck in a rut and the rest of baseball is driving over us.
Report any abuse or spam
We scored, we scored, we scored. Chipper was out by 20 feet and the catcher dropped the throw.
Report any abuse or spam
Heres how we stack up. Mcann at 3nd, Garret Anderson at 2nd and Kotchman at 1st. This could be the slowest baserunnuning tandem in MLB history.
Report any abuse or spam
Bobbycoxismyfather,
Because Minor will sign for slot. He's got the upside of, like, Rich Hill, but we saved a ton of money. I'd have taken Matzek, Purke, or Shelby Miller, offered them 1 million over slot, and told them to either take it or go to College and test your arm with some idiot pitching coach that will have you throw 200 pitches every 4 days throwing 2 innings of relief the previous day.
Report any abuse or spam
And if you don't sign him, you get to pick #8 in next year's draft, a stronger draft class. This was the year to take a gamble on a high upside guy.
Report any abuse or spam
So I guess this year is kaput. All we are talking about now is draft picks and prospects?
Report any abuse or spam
If Chipper plays more than 135 games this year then I will retract my previous comment. However, if you believe he won't see the DL again you're all sadly mistaken. I don't have any beef with Chipper, don't get me mistaken. He's actually my favorite players in baseball. I think he might be one of the top 10 hitters of all time, if not 1, 2, or 3. However, the injuries, and the fact he would be much better suited for an american league club whom can save his much maligned body and all the weird injuries they can spare him.
by the way, I just saw Jeff Francoeur ground into a double play with the bases loaded and I felt sick to my stomach. There's something mechanically wrong with his swing, like he rolling over when he swings or he is just flat out swinging too hard.
Report any abuse or spam
I'll tell you what Kelly Johnson just grounded into another 3rd out with 2 runners in scoring position. He is a defensive liability who is batting .230ish. Why is he playing?
Report any abuse or spam
Chipper usually hurts himself swinging, not playing defense.
Report any abuse or spam
I like discussing prospects year round. Nothing to do with how crappy the Braves are. Though if it did, I would be discussing prospects.
Report any abuse or spam
yeah, but now his defense is costing us wins as well as his injuries...10th error in the bottom of the 8th inning in a critical situation where the team was down just 1 run...doesn't help that Mike Gonzalez is pitching...why isn't Soriano or Manny Acosta in there? They have both pitched very respectably.
Report any abuse or spam
wow, the Reds are strugglng offensively and even they are kicking the crap out of the Braves...
its not enough the Braves have been shut out more than any other team in baseball this year...now they are losing to teams that have no business beating us.
Report any abuse or spam
Where's the heart and soul of this team? Who is gonna put the team on their back and carry them above .500? Forget the playoffs. They are irrelevant. I don't care if this team wins 10 in a row, they ain't making it to October. I don't see one man on this team who wants to win above all else. Look at the Red Sox for example. Forget the budget difference, better ownership, more fans, more exposure. Look at players like Pedroia and Papelbon. Every day they are out there they give 110%. Every game is life and death for those guys. They criticize themselves and each other if they aren't winning (or) doing whatever they could do in a lose. Now, it would be awesome if the fans of Atlanta showed more support for their great ballclub. I just don't see it though. Even when the Braves have been in the playoffs I remember watching on tv all the open seats. I thought to myself 'doesn't the city care about its own?' Dustin Pedroia made 400K last year and won the MVP. Shouldn't the Braves players (each and every one of them) feel that if a player like that will play his heart out for peanuts, then why aren't they playing at or above that level for the 5-10 Mil they are making?
Just some food for thought...I'm like most Braves fans these days...i'm tired of making excuses for my fave ballclub. Maybe I was so spoiled by 14 division championships I expect more.
Report any abuse or spam
Yeah Peter sorry about the prospects crack, I'm just so frustrated i could spit. It's obvious to me now, this is a team with:
1) really bad hitting skills
2) no speed
3) very little power
4) horrific front office skills
5) average to mediocre defensive skills
6) an uninspired and demoralized bullpen
7) a coaching staff who isn't connecting with their players
and a starting rotation who is beginning to buckle under the strain of items 1-7.
To everyone who wanted to crucify Escobar for mental lapses recently, lets remember how solid and consistent this guy has been for the last couple of years. Maybe he doesn't get along with "Cuntry Bobby" because he doesn't speak english, but his performance has been stellar in the field, on the bases and at the plate. He was one of the few Braves who actually had some trade value(Peavy et al.). His situation is endemic of what is happening to this team. Self doubt, blaming and making players the bad guys. When do we wake up to the fact that this management team is the problem. How many more wrecked hitters( Andruw, Shafer, Frenchy, KJ........) does it take to prove that the problem is at the top, not the bottom. Do we let this continue until Hanson is a mess? Do we wreck Medlen? Do we ruin Heyward and Freeman?
We need a new set of eyes on this team. Isn't it obvious?
Report any abuse or spam
in regards to wingatsm.. i wish there was an ignore feature on this blog.
Report any abuse or spam
i'd like to add billreef to that list.
Report any abuse or spam
"but his performance has been stellar in the field, on the bases and at the plate. "
Do you serioulsy believe those words?? Escobar has personally had more base running blunders (two and a half months into the season) than most teams will have for an entire year. He grounds into more than his fair share of double plays. I'll give the benefit of the doubt on defense. Yes, he has his mental breakdowns, but overall I'm satisfied with his play at short. But, that doesn't make up for the rest of it. I'm not saying give up on him, because let's not forget that BC had to give the same treatment to Andruw Jones back in the day.
Sorry guys, that comment just struck me as absurd.
Report any abuse or spam
Yeah and Escobar's RISP is over .400 and 3rd in all of baseball. Where do you think this team would be without him? At least 10 games under .500. He has really just started making baserunning mistakes lately. Maybe his motivation has suffered because his name is leaked as trade bait twice a week(nightmare front office ). If we are lucky Wren will pull off another brilliant trade and we will get another Texeira for the remainder of the season.
Report any abuse or spam